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hiker5
I have couple questions about the hardware cloth that some have used for potstands.
What department in your hardware store carries hardware cloth?
Gardening? ( I can picture the vinyl coated stuff or chicken wire being there)
If you would rather avoid galvanized products due the hazardous fumes released when exposed to flame, what alternatives are available?
I've seen mention of stainless steel hardware cloth.
Is this expensive?
Readily available at hardware stores?
Any other material options that will resist corrosion?
Thanks in advance sharing your knowledge on the topic.
Frolicking Dinosaurs
Not expensive and usually found with fencing materials where I shop.
Shutterbug
I have couple questions about the hardware cloth that some have used for potstands.
What department in your hardware store carries hardware cloth?
Gardening? ( I can picture the vinyl coated stuff or chicken wire being there)
If you would rather avoid galvanized products due the hazardous fumes released when exposed to flame, what alternatives are available?
I've seen mention of stainless steel hardware cloth.
Is this expensive?
Readily available at hardware stores?
Any other material options that will resist corrosion?
Thanks in advance sharing your knowledge on the topic.
At Home Depot it is with the screen wire.
RockyTrail
If it's a small store like TruValue or Ace, just ask'em.
In a big store like Home Depot, look over where the screen wire is sold. Usualy get a roll maybe 4 ft x 12 ft or something like that.
Farm stores often have it too.
I didn't know galvanized was hazardous in flame (cough, cough!):D but then I don't use the stuff, have a self-supporting aluminum windscreen.
Just Jeff
Some of the wire has a zinc coating that'll burn off after a few uses. Don't know about the galvanized stuff.
LostInSpace
I thought it was galvanized with zinc.
Amigi'sLastStand
Some of the wire has a zinc coating that'll burn off after a few uses. Don't know about the galvanized stuff.
:-? JJ, the zinc coating is the galvanized stuff...you are disappointing me, grasshopper. I am losing faith in your eternal knowledge of materials. Then again, you are Air Farce.:D:banana
zelph
Find yourself an Ace hardware store. Tell the sales associate that you want the dept. that fixes windows. Go there and ask them if they sell hardware cloth by the foot. If they do, order as little as you need.
Lot of super nice folks work at Ace hardware stores in my area. If you dont have a pair of wire cutters, ask them to cut it to the exact size for your stove. They may want a couple of extra bucks for the special cut. All you ladies out there, get your hardware cloth cut to size at Ace.
Ask for Hot Dipped galvanized hardware cloth, thats the good stuff. Zinc is used in the galvanizing process. No need to worry about the zinc burning off your hardware cloth pot stand. If you drink, smoke, or chew, Worry!
Just Jeff
Heh - I'm not a big stove maker...I've only made a few potstands and windscreens so I haven't looked into it much. More interested in making hammocks!
Er, I mean - Oh that? I was just testing you. You passed. I think.
hiker5
Thank you for the responses. I stopped at home depot on my way home from work today to check it out. I found aluminum flashing for windscreens in a 10 ft length. I also pick up downspout crimping tool that has made fitting a stove top and bottom together a breeze.
But i didn't not find quite what I was looking for as far a hardware cloth. I read a couple of responses ( i think up to RockyTrail's) before I headed out. I first checked by the wirescreen (as in window screen). No luck there. So I went looking for an area with fencing. Not much luck until i found my way over the the outdoor gardening area. There I found several different sizes of hardware cloth but all of it was either galvanized, vinyl coated, or plastic.
Zelph - please explain to me why I don't need to worry about the zinc buring off of the pot stand. Are you familiar with "Metal Fume Fever" (http://www.aws.org/technical/facts/FACT-25.PDF#search=%22zinc%20fever%22)? The sickness brought on by breathing zinc oxide fumes does not sound pleasant to me. Do you believe that the amount of zinc oxide released is negligable? I think that may be the case. And fortunately there are no known cumulative effects like is found with lead and cadmium. I' just like to know what you are basing your comment on.
In a previous thread (http://www.whiteblaze.net/forum/showthread.php?t=1964&highlight=galvanized) there was a post (#30) (http://www.whiteblaze.net/forum/showpost.php?p=30007&postcount=30) warning of the dangers of smoke from galvanized steel. In my own research I've found reference to heath issues from zinc oxide, but no reference to arsenic being used in the galvanization process. Here is one of the MSDS sheets (http://www.wcisteel.com/MSDS%20Galv.pdf) i've looked at that has no mention of arsenic. Thoughts?
Just Jeff
I think it burns off quickly, so be careful for the first few uses and then don't worry about it.
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atraildreamer
I use zinc coated hardware cloth for the top of my Goya stove design. The zinc burns off after a couple of burns. Don't breathe the fumes (shouldn't be a problem with good ventilation.) A lot of the problems with zinc coatings occur when people use zinc coated refrigerator grates for grilling. The zinc vaporizes off and is absorbed by the meat. :eek: Stick with stainless steel or cast iron that is specifically made for grills.
ShakeyLeggs
Based on the MSDS you supplied a link to you should be ok until the zink coating burns off. Just make sure where you burn it it is well ventilated. If you are still worried get some stainless hardware cloth.
http://www.twpinc.com/twp/jsp/product.jsp?type=12
hiker5
I agree that burning off the zinc coating in a well ventilated place would likely be a safe way to go. But I think I'll see if I can find a local source for stainless steel hardware cloth before going that route. It would be nice to not have to deal with the corrosion.
Has anyone bought SS hardware cloth at brick and mortar store? (thanks ShakeyLeggs for the web source)
generoll
i remember brazing galvanized sheet metal back in the days of my youth. i did get one episode of shortness of breath, but this was after doing a lot of welding and a lot more fumes then you'd get from burning off the coating on a foot or so of hardware cloth. to me the downside would be that the stand would be prone to corrosion after the coating had been burned off. i suppose that it would be easy enough to replace the screen every season or so.
Stickbow
This comes up among rabbit and guinea pig breeeders (and probably among fur breeders, but I never hung around with them) every once and awhile. This same article is often referenced.
The reason it comes up is rabbit cages are usually made with zinc-galvanized wire, as stainless wire is prohibitively expensive, and doesn't seem to last any longer than galvanized. Rabbit breeders often use a torch to sterilize the galvanized wire cages (without the rabbit in them of course). They often do this to lots of cages at a time, in the rabbit barn with the rabbits. None of the breeders I know -- nor their rabbits, who they worry about more than themselves -- have evidenced a reaction.
That's in somewhat enclosed barn, not outside.
Point being: I'd not worry about it. You could go outside (even pick a breezy day), take a torch and heat the wire thoroughly until a dull cherry red, let it cool, and it would be fine. If you have one and want to worry about it, wear a respirator to burn off the zinc.
Spock
Stainless hardware cloth IS expensive, $10 per square foot from http://www.mcmaster.com/ . There may be other sources.
On the other hand, I have not found a galvenized hardware cloth that was actually welded as opposed to being held together with the zinc treatment. And when the zinc melts the wire falls apart. Besides releasing a poisonous gas.
zelph
Zelph - please explain to me why I don't need to worry about the zinc buring off of the pot stand. Are you familiar with "Metal Fume Fever" (http://www.aws.org/technical/facts/FACT-25.PDF#search=%22zinc%20fever%22)?
In my "Welding 101" :) class they made us aware of the Fume Fever in the very first session.
It is my understanding that the fumes are created by an intense heat that vaporises the metal. The vaporised metal then condenses and forms minute flakes that look like smoke as they rise in the column of heat. It is these tiny flakes that are inhaled and irritate the lungs and cause the acute allergic condition.
It is my opinion that an alcohol burner/stove does'nt create that intense heat as is generated in the welding process. I've tried to locate my textbook from the class but have failed to find it. I'll try to locate something on the net to back this up.
I have yet to see any indication of melted zinc on the potstands that I have used in numerous test burns. What I have seen is the zinc has become brittle and has cracked/chipped off the wire. I have never seen any smoke generated from the surface of the wire that would indicate fume was present.
IF there are any Fumes being emmitted in an alcohol stove, I would think that they would be in the (PEL) PERMISSIBLE EXPOSURE LIMIT as set forth by OSHA.
PERMISSIBLE EXPOSURE LIMIT (PEL)
The current OSHA standard for zinc oxide
fume is 5 milligrams of zinc oxide fume per
cubic meter of air (mg/m3 ) averaged over an
eight–hour work shift. NIOSH recommends
that the permissible exposure limit be
changed to 5 mg/m3 averaged over a work
shift of up to 10 hours per day, 40 hours per
week, with a Short–Term Exposure Limit
(STEL) of 10 mg/m3 averaged over a
15–minute period.
hiker5
Thank you for explaining your position, zelph. The intensity of the heating was something I had considered, but I didn't find good source to state the temperatures at which this became an issue. For that matter, I don't really have a good way to quantify the intensity of my alcohol stoves either.
Thanks everone for the discussion. I feel comfortable that any zinc oxide being released when first using a galvanized hardware cloth pot stand would be minimal and not a health concern if done in a well ventilated space.
My only hesitation now is corrosion. I have a steel pot stand from a coffee can that got pretty rusty/nasty. I don't really care about the asthetics, but I'd rather not be getting rust in my cookpot when I store that stand there, or on my fingers before I'm about to eat.
RockyTrail
Thank you for the responses. I stopped at home depot on my way home from work today to check it out. I found aluminum flashing for windscreens in a 10 ft length.
Now THAT'S something to worry about. If you haven't opened up that roll of flashing yet, first stop and think...wear some leather gloves and be careful. Those rolls of 6" x 10 ft flashing can uncoil in a flash and slice you real bad.
The stuff is great for making windscreens, but be careful unrolling that roll and be prepared to dodge it if it whips open like a spring. I've made a few windscreens and survived :) ha ha but just wanted to warn you in case you didn't know...
zelph
Stainless Steel Wire Mesh - Weaving and GradesMarket Grade Wire Mesh
These commonly used industrial wire meshes exhibit properties of high strength and square openings. Readily available for immediate shipping. These meshes have square openings straight thru openings.
Bolting Cloth
All bolting clothes are pln sq wv (over one, under one). It is a light, strong, and durable wire mesh with wire diameters lighter than market grades. Its high percentage of open area makes it useful for sifting and separating. All can be crumpled/folded easily with one's hand. These meshes have square openings straight thru openings.
High Transparency Wire Mesh
These "optical grade" precision stainless steel meshes are the world's most delicate highly transparent metal fabric. These meshes have square openings straight thru openings.
Welded Stainless Mesh
These meshes are not woven, but rather the wires are joined by resistance-welding which results in stong, consistent welds which use no filler metal in the joints. It is used when a non-toxic and non-fraying material is required. The smallest hole size is about 1/4 inch. These meshes have square openings straight thru openings.
Micronic (Dutch Weaves)
The dutch weaves (PDW, TDW) are thick, strong; light-tight meshes which are used primarily in fluid, vacuum, and pressure filtration of liquids and gases. These are woven to precise tolerances and their openings are actually tiny curved, triangular tunnels.
Sintered (Furnace Bonded)
Sintered mesh is produced by bonding wire mesh panels to produce a non-fraying material that is used where mesh must retain the aperature sizes and have no wire shifting or fallout problems. It has a rigid, unitized structure that is often made into discs for liquid and gas filtration and diffusion applications.
zelph
Sintered (Furnace Bonded)
Sintered mesh is produced by bonding wire mesh panels to produce a non-fraying material that is used where mesh must retain the aperature sizes and have no wire shifting or fallout problems. It has a rigid, unitized structure that is often made into discs for liquid and gas filtration and diffusion applications
The above post that I made yesterday was to bring to your attention the fact that the wire cloth will fray if it is not welded. The material I purchased from Mcmaster Carr did fray. Just wanted all to know before you ordered.
Here is a follow-up on the Fume Fever topic.
This is a quote from the website of Neil Jenkins (http://neiljenkins.net/Fume/)
WELDING FUME NEIL jENKINS
Welding Fume
For my dissertation, I studied welding fume. (Why it was researched.)
This welding fume research is reported in my publications.
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Here are some multimedia files related to my welding fume research that are not easily published in print (all files are quicktime video or animated gifs). I filmed and edited all of the videos, except where noted.
I used a welding chamber that was built by Joseph Quimby and Dr. Gael Ulrich at the University of New Hampshire. See J. B. Quimby and G. D. Ulrich, "Fume Formation Rates in Gas-Shielded Metal Arc Welding," Welding Journal, 78: 142-149,1999.
the welding chamber (32 MB)
welding inside the chamber (0.3 MB)
Airborne particles can be formed during welding through evaporation/condensation and through liquid (micro)spatter formation. Fume (which looks like steam or smoke, but is actually comprised of solid particles) and spattering can be seen in these high speed videos:
high speed laser shadow video of gas metal arc welding electrode droplet and fume formation (38 MB)
this experiment was created and filmed by Dr. Larry Jones (see L. A. Jones, "Dynamic Electrode Forces in Gas Metal Arc Welding," PhD Thesis, MIT, Cambridge, MA, 1996) and I selected, digitized, and edited it.
high speed video of 2% O2-argon-shielded gas metal arc welding (notice fume) (1.3 MB)
high speed video of carbon dioxide-shielded gas metal arc welding (notice spatter) (3 MB)
resistance welding (1 MB) and plasma cutting (1.5 MB) can also create spatter.
I selected, digitized, and edited the resistance welding experiment described in "Cinematography of Resistance Spot Welding of Galvanized Steel Sheet," C.T. Lane, C.D. Sorensen, G.B. Hunter, S.A. Gedeon, and T.W. Eagar, Welding J., 66(9), 260s, 1987.
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Here is a list of other welding fume researchers and a very long list of welding fume publications.
http://neiljenkins.net/Fume/
Neil is probably the guy that could put a lot of concerned stove makers/users minds at ease if someone is interested in sending him an email and inform him of this thread. Show him a couple of photos of stoves using galvanized hardware cloth with the wire glowing red hot. Also to include the temperature at which denatured alcohol flames burn.(I think i saw that in a post on HHQ) With that information he might be able to determine if fume is present and if there is any concerns we should be aware of.
Are there any volunteers to send him that info, maybe one of the Moderators(Sgt Rock?)(Skidsteer?)(Hiker5?)
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